The Truth About Nutrient Timing with Brandon DeCruz

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This week on the podcast, Mikki speaks to returning guest Brandon DaCruz — coach, educator, and one of the sharpest minds in physique and performance nutrition. Their conversation takes a deep dive into nutrient timing: what actually matters, what’s been overstated, and where the science genuinely shifts outcomes in the real world.

Brandon unpacks the long-debated “anabolic window” and why it’s not as binary as social media makes it seem. He and Mikki explore how pre- and post-workout nutrition can affect not just muscle protein synthesis but muscle protein breakdown, training volume, recovery, appetite regulation, energy expenditure, and even how the body partitions fuel toward muscle or fat. They look at insulin sensitivity around training, cortisol’s role in extended sessions, and how to structure peri-workout nutrition differently for fat loss versus muscle building. They also discuss carbohydrate timing, intra-workout fuelling, and the most persistent myths that still mislead lifters today.

A conversation for anyone who wants to train smarter, not just harder — and understand the metabolic choreography that happens behind the scenes of every rep.

Brandon DaCruz at his website https://www.brandondacruzfit.com/, and on Instagram @brandondacruz_

Chasing Clarity https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-112-spot-reduction-is-it-possible-to-lose-body-fat/id1619611966?i=1000657394910

Brandon DaCruz is an online nutrition and physique coach and sports nutritionist. He’s also a National Level NPC physique competitor and an internationally published fitness model who’s written articles and filmed educational content for publications like Men’s Fitness Magazine and Bodybuilding.com. 

Brandon has spent over 13 years  working within the sports nutrition and fitness industries and has coached every type of client including Olympia Level professional men’s physique competitors, college athletes, MMA fighters, CrossFit competitors, and lifestyle clients. 

He believes in blending what’s been proven in the research with his own anecdotal and first hand "in the trenches'' experience to improve body composition, optimise performance and enhance health in order to help his clients achieve their goals whether that be building muscle, losing body fat, increasing performance and/or optimising health and longevity. This is what he refers to as his health-centric coaching model as he believes that improving one's health is the cornerstone to optimising their physical goals. 

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Creators and Guests

Host

Mikki Williden

What is Mikkipedia?

Mikkipedia is an exploration in all things health, well being, fitness, food and nutrition. I sit down with scientists, doctors, professors, practitioners and people who have a wealth of experience and have a conversation that takes a deep dive into their area of expertise. I love translating science into a language that people understand, so while some of the conversations will be pretty in-depth, you will come away with some practical tips that can be instigated into your everyday life. I hope you enjoy the show!

00:00
Hey everyone, it's Mikki here. You're listening to Mikkipedia and this week on the podcast I speak to returning guest Brandon de Cruz. Coach, educator and one of the sharpest minds in physique and performance nutrition. Our conversation today takes a deep dive into nutrient timing. What actually matters, what's been overstated and where the science genuinely shifts outcomes in the real world. So Brandon.

00:27
unpacks the long debated anabolic window in why it's not as binary as social media makes it seem. We explore how pre post workout nutrition can affect not just muscle protein synthesis but muscle protein breakdown, training volume, recovery, appetite regulation, energy expenditure, and even how the body partitions fuel towards muscle or fat. We look at insulin, sensitivity around training, cortisol's role in extended sessions, and how to structure period workout nutrition differently for fat loss versus muscle building.

00:57
We also discussed carbohydrate timing, intra-workout fueling, and the most persistent myths that still mislead people training today. And I will say because of Brandon's expertise in the physique space and just his mind for science and really applying it, the information you hear today is going to be different from the social media blasts that you get out there on Instagram.

01:22
So this is a conversation for anyone who wants to train smarter, not just harder and understand the metabolic choreography that happens behind the scenes of every rep. And you better believe that Chad GPT wrote that last sentence. So for those of you unfamiliar with Brandon, Brandon D'Cruz is an online nutrition physique coach and sports nutritionist. He's also a national level NPC physique competitor, or he has been an internationally published fitness model.

01:50
who's written articles and filmed educational content for publications like Men's Fitness Magazine and Bodybuilding.com. has spent over 13 years working within the sports nutrition and fitness industries and has been an online coach since 2010 actually, coaching every type of client including Olympia level professional men's physique competitors, college athletes, MMA fighters, CrossFit competitors and lifestyle clients. And for what it's worth, Brandon just works.

02:20
so much with the everyday individual that if you want to reach out to connect with him and set up a coaching inquiry he is absolutely open to that and you can find him over on his website BrandonDeCruzFit.com and on Instagram at BrandonDeCruz. I've also got a link to Brandon's Chasing Clarity podcast which is just

02:43
such a treasure trove of information. It is awesome both his solo episodes and when he has his guests on sort of go through particular issues including those like nutrient timing and Brandon and I have recorded several episodes on mcapedia already and we have another one coming out in a few weeks time as well which is another one I'm super excited about. I've had links to the other episodes that we've had Brandon on in the show notes too.

03:09
Before we crack on into this interview though, I would like to remind you that the best way to support this podcast is to hit the subscribe button on your favourite podcast listening platform. That increases the visibility of Micopedia and amongst literally thousands of other podcasts out there. So more people get to hear from the guests that I have on the show, including Brandon. All right team, enjoy this conversation.

03:36
As long as you throw me a question, I'll keep going until we get you back in there. So I got you. Amazing. That's good. So please. So we'll just kick off straight away. Brandon, always a pleasure to have you on the chat and always really appreciate the way that you come to a topic. Pretty low key, actually. And the one that we're talking about today, nutrient timing, is a hot topic. And what I find hilarious actually is that there are people...

04:05
I'm just going nuts on it on social media about whether or not we need to do faster training or is it dangerous to do faster training? Should the recommendations be different? Whereas you're low key sending me these two hour long podcasts that you've done with other experts in the field who've really looked at it, I think in quite a nuanced way. What do you reckon? Do you reckon I'm right? No, absolutely. I think that we have to consider the fact that we all come from a different perspective, but really what I'm seeing in the social media sphere

04:35
is that there are very one-sided depictions or views on this topic. And a lot of times what ends up happening is it's individuals with very large platforms. And these are people I have the utmost respect for, but they're either researchers or they're content creators. And really what we need to get across, and Mickey, I'd sent you an email about this, a lot of times people are focusing on mechanisms. And it's almost like a battle royale between the two. I have this mechanism, I have that mechanism, MK, M-Tor, all these different things.

05:03
Believe me, I am a nerd. love digging into weeds on this thing. But really when it comes back down to it, I have to remind myself every single day, who am I doing this for? And it's to help the people that I work with and the people in the general population, which are utterly confused. And I work with at a time at least 50 clients at a time. And I'm having interactions. And I also do many podcasts, as you very well know, I interact with a lot of other coaches. I mentor other coaches and I'm getting this broad based consensus from

05:31
real people in the real world that they're confused about the information and they don't know which expert to believe. And it's really difficult. I was at a seminar years ago and I remember one of the presenters said, one of the biggest fallacies or one of the biggest issues with evidence-based nutrition is that we can have two people of a very high intellect arguing both sides of a situation or a conflict essentially or a topic.

05:56
And those in the general population are not able to differentiate who is right. What ends up happening is they just acknowledge both these individuals, they know much more than I do. And then they don't even really focus on domain specific expertise. They go towards their cognitive biases. Who do I relate to more? Who really appeals to my ah pain points and things of that sort? And so then essentially the information gets uh biased as well as it gets misinterpreted. And I think that's a

06:24
big aspect of what's going on with nutrient time, which is why I go right to the literature first and foremost. I consult with experts that not only have research basis. So someone like an Eric Helms who has done research reviews on this topic, or someone like a Dr. Scott Stevenson, who is well published as well, but I also really applied in practice. gauge, I apply these principles to my client's health. I get biofeedback on them. I track their progression over time. take in both objective and subjective feedback.

06:53
and then I'm able to make better decisions moving forward, I'm able to form a more all-encompassing view on a topic so that when I speak about it, I can go through the mechanisms with you, and we will today. However, I will also be able to tell you how do we apply it. And that's one aspect that is really missing from the social media sphere, because many of these experts, they're more focused on arguing with one another and almost building their platform by calling another expert out or someone else with a very big social media influence than they are with helping people.

07:21
I think in their minds, and I'm not saying that they do this with ill intent, I think in their minds, they think they're helping people, but they're actually adding to confusion and they're arguing with each other in the ivory tower, essentially. And people in the real world are still confused as to what to do. So that's where individuals that like to blend research and practice and really bridge that gap between information and practical application like you and I are able to bring it back down to the people that we really are reaching. Because to be honest with you, most people listening to podcasts are not like you and I, Mickey.

07:49
They are people in the general population that they want better guidance. They want to be able to listen to something relaxing while they're making their meal prep or while they're driving to work. And they want to be able to understand it. So of course we could sit here and go through the uh pathways and the different cellular um activations and things of that sort, which we can definitely get into. nerdy. We love this stuff. But at the same time, I think it's always important to bring it back to what do we actually do? And let's not make it be black or white or this dichotomous thinking where it's like,

08:17
You either can nutrient time or you can't. You have to train facet or you can't train facet. We have to stop with that because we have to realize that it really comes down to the individual themselves, the circumstances that they're in, the context of the situation, as well as their goals, their preferences, their limitations, and their own bottlenecks. 100%. And another thing which I think which we haven't really discussed, and I bet you will feel a bit differently on this because I think you're a nicer person than I am, but I do wonder how many people look at this as they're like, well, these people

08:47
I think a lot of people can also be quite lazy with nutrition as well, and they sort of want to do something about it. But here's an excuse not to do anything because all these experts are actually arguing. So I don't know what to do. So I'm just going to sit back, eat my chips, and then just complain that I have no idea. And I'm quite confused. Which I know that doesn't sound like a very nice thing to say, but you you deal with hundreds of people every day. No, absolutely. think that one of the things that

09:12
has actually bothered me. And Mickey, you know me like personally, very few things bothered me. I let things just pass. I'm really focused on the people that I'm able to help. And I'm not really worried about getting into social media arguments or really debating other people. I really just want to put out great information. And I hope that eventually that's able to drown out some of the misinformation, the disinformation, and some of the poor quality content that's put out there. And that is very influential. But we are in an age of evidence-based nihilism. Nothing matters anymore. It's essentially where...

09:41
A lot of individuals are taking and they'll take a topic and their biggest intention is to break it down and pretty much debunk that topic. And so, what they do is oftentimes they will make it as simple as possible, but oftentimes that is missing nuance in and of itself. And that is a big fallacy because if you are someone that is truly intellectual, you really understand a topic, you should understand it enough that you can simplify it, but don't dumb it down so much that you miss all the nuance within it and that you make something say like nutrient timing, make it

10:11
sound like it doesn't matter because we have many arguments on the internet where people are essentially saying, it doesn't matter when you eat. You can eat one time a day, you can eat six times a day. All that matters is calories. And yes, I do believe that calories are fundamental. But when it gets down to the brass tacks, most people that are intermediate or advanced, they've done the calorie thing. They've tracked their calories, they're hitting their protein, and they're still not where they want to be nor where they could be. And that's where we can bring out more nuanced approaches.

10:39
and really start dialing in and pulling different levers that we have experience and evidence for and really get them to that next level. Yeah, 100%. And I know I'm just going to bring this point up now because we did a, we chatted about it in the weekend and then had that subsequent post just that, you know, for some people it's, know, if you're like, if we're thinking training fasted versus fed, I'm going right here, is that the idea that training

11:06
Fasted almost sets them up psychologically to just shift the way they are around food and their patterns around how they behave around food and when they eat to the detriment of their performance, of their mood, of their goals. And someone quite rightly said, but that's not the fasting, that's how the fasting is then affecting their behavior, which of course we acknowledge and I absolutely agree with that.

11:32
I just feel like it can perpetuate bad behavior in individuals who are susceptible to that. Not that we always want a message to just those people, but I just think that is often not acknowledged when you get the, it doesn't matter about training fasted. A hundred percent. I think that one thing that really needs to be pointed out is that we have a very large demographic that you and I appeal to and that we speak to that are under-fueled women. These are women that have long dieting histories of chronic dieting, of chronically depriving themselves.

12:02
And this is what I refer to as a mindset of restriction and subtraction. And one of my biggest goals is getting those women out of a state of low energy availability or reds, relative energy deficiency, or being in this chronically metabolically adapted state where every axis is knocked down. We see their sex hormones are tanks. So they have low estradiol, low progesterone, completely downregulated thyroidal axis. They're also having really poor biofeedback. They're not actually getting the...

12:30
the results that they're looking for, nor are they getting the physiological adaptations from their training or their diet. They're in this state where their body has essentially down-regulated all systems. They've lost their menstrual cycle. We've discussed it, you and I, personally, a lot that I have a big passion for helping women restore their menstrual cycle because that was something that I encountered with a partner of mine that went to a big-name prep coach. 2015 was when it happened. I had to encounter this thing that I wasn't familiar with. There was no one talking about hypothalamic menorrhea. There was no one talking about the importance of the menstrual cycle being

12:58
were stored in competitive physique athletes. And that was something that I've been looking into for the past 10 years. And the thing is, it's not about is facet training a bad thing or is it inherently bad. It's more so that a lot of the women that we talk to, we work with, especially myself, they're already in the state where there anything, any type of information that's going to feed into that cognitive bias, which will allow them to restrict more and feel like it's appropriate, they're going to go towards. when you don't put any caveats in there and say, uh

13:27
Well, FASA training is fine if you're making sure that you have a post-workout meal immediately after because we see that in terms of actual muscle protein balance, when you train in a FASA state, you actually go into a negative protein balance. So, you stimulate muscle protein synthesis, but because you went into the state in a catabolic state where muscle breakdown was higher because you had an overnight fast, you're actually going into a greater state of breakdown. So, we want to break that fast essentially, make sure we get adequate amount of protein, adequate amount of carbohydrates post-workout. But a lot of times, the message

13:57
only partially gets through. So, these become behavioral habits where they hear information and it just reinforces their biases and then they double down and say, well, I don't want to eat. And I can't tell you and I told you this personally, but I can't express to the audience enough how many women I've had a conversation with that I've started working with and I've said, listen, I understand that you're scared to eat more. You're scared to pair things to really increase your energy intake. So, the only thing we're going to do as we start is I'm going to include peri-workout nutrition. I'm going to utilize a nutrient-finding approach due to the fact that

14:26
it's going to be better or it's going to be more advantageous to distribute your calories, your macros, and even supplements in very specific time periods. And we're going to do it so that we're feeling for the work required. I'm really getting that mindset into them. I'm really getting it across to them. Listen, I want you to go in well-fueled so you can push your training performance because over time is that those increases and improvements in training performance, which are going to yield better body composition outcomes from a lean mass to fat mass perspective. after we're going to refuel, so we want to make sure that

14:54
we're fueling for your performance, but then we're refueling to facilitate greater recovery. When they can get that in and they buy into it and they see the results and I get so much feedback from women like, didn't realize how much better I could train or how much better I could feel in the gym. I don't have low energy. I don't have blood sugar dips. They have so much great feedback that they buy into it and then they're willing to eat more across the day. But it's almost like the first step. It's the gateway to getting women into a more well-fueled state where I can take them from that mindset of restriction subtraction.

15:22
into what I like to refer to as a mindset of abundance and addition. And that not only has physiological effects in terms of getting them into a greater state of energy availability, reversing many of the metabolic adaptations that they've sustained. So, a down regulation in total daily energy expenditure, we're going to see when we're increasing food, getting energy availability up, we're going to see all components of total daily energy expenditure increase. So, they're going be able to move more without feeling sluggish. So, meat's going to go up, they're going to burn more calories through that. They're going to have more energy for their training. So, they're going to expend more calories during training.

15:51
going to be in a greater position to build muscle, which is going to increase both resting metabolic rate as well as their exercise activity thermogenesis. Then you're going have more food in their system, so they're going to have higher thermoconfective feeding. Now, downstream of that, we're going to have implications on hormones. I'm getting greater energy availability into the system. That's going to include both better macronutrition and better micronutrition. So now, I have many women that come to me and I'm always doing chronometer analysis. And so, I see a lot of times zinc, selenium, iodine, these are all deficient.

16:21
they also have thyroid issues. And iron is a huge one with women. So, we're pleading all these different micronutrients. And now, all of a sudden, they went from having a downregulated hormonal system to a couple months later, hormones are back online. Their thyroid is back to actually getting sufficient T4 and T3. TSH is starting to come down, so they don't look whether it be subclinical or actually hypothyroid. And then, they feel better from a biofeedback perspective. So, their day-to-day energy levels, their day-to-day activity is increased even just naturally.

16:48
this doesn't just have effects on their body composition, but their quality of life. So I'm improving how they can perform at work. I'm improving the energy levels that they have for their children. These are things that go so much further than just what a coach can do for you in the gym. Now, I totally agree. And I know that because we went back and forth on email and your level or your area of expertise is resistance training, whereas mine is much more in that endurance space. But everything that you've just described is absolutely applicable, I think, to both.

17:17
areas. And one of the mistakes that I see a lot of endurance athletes make, and I used to make it myself all the time as well. And this has really only been over the last sort of five to seven years where I've really shifted how I feel about this is it's almost like people think they can get more from the session if they're going into a faster training, not fueling that session and then delaying their eating. And of course, you know, it's almost like they've sort of banked these calories, if you like.

17:46
to then be able to spend later on. But the body doesn't work like that. I really think that you just sort of, to your point, everything is being downregulated and slowed down in that process. So it's really encouraging people, even those with body composition goals in the endurance space, actually the time to restrict calories is not when you're training or around training. It's actually later on in the day for the very reasons that you've described.

18:12
Absolutely. No, if I'm trying to create an energy deficit, I kind of like looking at nutrition in different pockets or windows. So, around training, I'm trying to fuel both for the training session, also to enhance muscular adaptations and recovery. And then, if I'm going to need to pull back on calories or energy intake, it's going to be outside of that training window where it's less detrimental to someone's actual muscular adaptations and recovery capacity. But also, I can create a deficit outside that window.

18:41
Honestly, when I create a fat loss diet, the last place that I pull calories or macronutrients from, especially carbohydrates, is from that peri-workout window, which would be your pre and your post-workout. Then in some individuals, I still leave an intra-workout as well, but we'll go through that later on in the podcast. That's a very specific and contextual situation where I'm using intra-workout with individuals. But when it comes to a broad-based perspective, I am really a big advocate of pre post-workout fueling. Then if we need to create a deficit, there's going to be times in the day where it's about muscle growth.

19:10
Say someone trains early in the day, early in the morning, their pre post workout is going to be designed for muscle growth and performance. And then later in the day, I look at this almost as like fat loss periods where I can pull back and we can go to something like lean protein sources, fibrous fruits and veggies, and then, you know, small amounts of fat sources like healthy fats that are going to be anti-inflammatory. And I'd rather create an energy deficit by pulling back on those meals than I would around the peri-workout window. Yeah. I often think, Brandon, people don't trust themselves.

19:37
From a behavioral perspective, they're like, well, if I'm eating early on, well, this just means more calories for me because there's nothing that's going to stop me from feeling the hunger that I feel later. They almost think that eating earlier is not going to offset that hunger and appetite later in the day. Do you ever get that sort of pushback? Like, well, I'm always going to be hungry at four to six, so this is when I want the calories rather than earlier in the day when you're prescribing them.

20:03
So, we can look at that. Let me look at that from a physiological perspective first because I think when I unfold the data, people will realize, wow, uh that's not how it works. So, first and foremost, when we actually look at circadian rhythms and the hunger hormone ghrelin itself is entrained by your daily rhythm in terms of eating. So, say you were to place larger meals early in the morning, you would actually have higher ghrelin secretion than first and foremost. So, you're going to entrain your hunger hormones based on your daily habits, which is why

20:32
you interestingly enough, if you are someone that's a snacker and every day at 2.30, you have a snack, I have many clients that they're in the situation, they think that they need that snack because they get a hunger, an increase in hunger. But it's actually that you train your body to have a physiological response to the ingestion of nutrients. It's sensing that. And really, when we look at eating behavior, this is what's called acute conditioned response. So really what that means is we have conditioned ourselves very similarly to actually

20:57
Pavlovian conditioning. So just like Pavlov rang a bell and the dog salivated, we do the same thing with our eating behavior. So if every day you decide you're going to have a snack at 2.30, you may do that for a couple of weeks. Just your stress, it's midday at work. Now you've been trained that habit into your biology. So you just didn't have a psychological effect where you were looking for that snack to relieve stress. It actually made a physiological response where you're having an increase in hunger hormones, especially if it's something like hyperplatable. You're going to actually have

21:26
increase in dopamine before you even eat that food because it's just the cue before it. So, it might be going to the vending machine or going to the break room. Knowing that anticipatory feeling is actually an increase in dopamine because dopamine is motivating you to essentially seek out that food. So, that's first and foremost. There's research that actually looks at calorie shifting. This is more in like the circadian biology research. um Daniela Jakubowicz has a couple of papers which look at women specifically and it's

21:53
in early time restricting studies, and I know that she has one, I believe it's a 1400 calorie weight loss diet where it was shifted. So it was either a crossover design and they had two different groups. Actually, it was two different groups. She has many studies, so I'm trying to pull them off the top of head because it's been many years since I've read them. But in one of the studies, she did a calorie banked situation. So was either a large breakfast or a small breakfast. And how it broke down was it was a 700 calorie breakfast as a large breakfast, a 500 calorie lunch and a 200 calorie dinner.

22:21
Or it was the inverse. So they had a 200 calorie breakfast like many people would. They would do something like coffee or something very light. Then they had a 500 calorie lunch and then a 700 calorie dinner. When they looked at the outcomes at the end of the trial period, they saw better weight loss from the women in the early time restricted eating or early calorie shifting more so. Time restricted eating is improper use of that term. But with the people that had the big breakfast group essentially, they had better appetite regulation. They had better fat loss outcomes.

22:50
had better weight loss maintenance after the trial itself, and they also had uh a better management of ghrelin levels. So when they did a six-month follow-up on the study, they found that their ghrelin levels hadn't increased as much. we would think from a physiological response perspective that weight loss ended up itself. If someone in a group lost more weight, then if the women in the big breakfast group lost more weight than the women in the big dinner group, they would actually have a higher secretion of ghrelin because ghrelin also is uh

23:20
release in response to weight loss or especially the metabolic adaptation, which knocks down leptin and increases ghrelin. That wasn't the case. Now, if we look into another area of literature, which I looked into years ago, but I really need to tease back into it. So, Mickey, we might have to do a follow-up on this, but it's called within-day energy deficiency. Are you familiar with it? yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All we have a few studies and there's only a few to be honest with you guys. So, I don't want to make the evidence sound stronger than it is, but we look at what happens when people create a within-day energy deficit, essentially. So, that means

23:48
calories are equated. So, it could be 2000 calories, but we look at when women specifically because these were athletic women, they also have a study in males, but this one I'm speaking of is specifically women. They found that when women or go the early eating period before training and they delay their eating, they get the same amount of calories. on a 24-hour energy balance perspective, they get the same, but they calorie shift things and they kind of like hoard what I would call macro hoarding where they eat more at night.

24:14
it skews not only ghrelin and other hunger hormones, but it also skews their cortisol secretion. And so this isn't to demonize cortisol by any means, but it's less favorable and they also found less favorable sex hormone profiles on those women. And so really what it comes down to is a lot of people will say nutrient timing doesn't matter. It doesn't matter when you eat. It's only about calories, but we have evidence to the contrary. And then we have so many other reasons as to why, specifically in the resistance training, why

24:40
It's more than just hitting your macros and more than just hitting calories. We really need to dial things in if you have larger goals or higher. um You want to raise yourself to a higher standard. And it's super interesting, Brendan, because I think a lot of the arguments are actually being are actually in that resistance training space, much more so than I see people sort of referencing sort of endurance athletes. Now, to your point on that within day energy.

25:08
deficiency. am aware of that. And unlike you, do not have a photographic memory for studies or authors. I do one outcome I remember of either the study you were describing or potentially just another one was that bone markers are also negatively impacted if you delay nutrition post-training. And these are just acute studies. And these are acute bone markers um that are looked at. We don't know the long-term implications of that. it sort of does um

25:37
it really tracks with what we see with low energy availability and subsequent relative energy deficiency sort of outcomes as well. that's like another reason to actually think about when you're eating around your training and not just eating whenever or whatever. Absolutely. Yeah. But to the point of uh resistance training particularly, so people often talk about

26:04
that there's no difference in muscle protein synthesis. When it doesn't matter if you have protein in and around training, it doesn't make a difference to muscle protein synthesis. Now, I think that you think differently or that you agree with that, that there's something that people aren't thinking about in the whole sort of anabolic response. can, so can you talk about the anabolic window? Like, is it real? Is it overstated? Is it misunderstood? Like what's go there? Because there are different opinions. And to your point,

26:33
particularly in the morning, which is what we're talking about, we're coming out of a catabolic state. And then when you're training, you're contributing that as the whole point of training. help us understand this. Absolutely. So let me just go over the concept of the anabolic window just for those out there that may not be familiar with it, but essentially this is like an old school concept that's been around for decades. I mean, it's been around since I was in the fitness industry 20 years ago. So I'm sure it even predates that, but it refers to this idea that there's this short

27:01
post-workout period and it's usually said to be 30 to 60 minutes. It's made a revival recently where it's 30 minutes coincidentally, but and essentially this is a period or a window where your body is essentially primed to absorb nutrients, build muscle and to recover. And if you didn't get your protein and carbs in that tight window, you'd be missing out on gains from that training session. Now, I'm going to be honest with you, Mickey, when I first started training 20 years ago, we all believe this. I remember literally sprinting to my gym bag. I used to bring a shake. It was already premixed.

27:29
It was quick digesting protein and it was dextrose powder. At that point, it was either dextrose or maltodextrin. They tasted horrendous. They did not flavor them and they were so thick and chalky. But in my mind, based on the information that was there, and now mind you, this is 2005, um there wasn't really an evidence-based movement. The only one that was in the space at that time was Lyle MacDonald. I hadn't been fortunate enough to stumble upon his work yet. In my mind, based on the magazines or the bodybuilders that I knew, if I miss that shake,

27:58
I'd miss that window and I'd lose all my progress. But over these years, we've seen that the evidence doesn't hold that. It's not a short 30-minute window that you have to get nutrients in. It's more like a garage door than a small window. And really, how long that door stays open for depends on a few key factors. So you mentioned training fasted. And so if someone trains fasted, like early in the morning before eating, and you haven't had any food for five to six hours, then the anabolic window becomes more relevant.

28:26
And that is something I see a lot of people overlooking because the same individuals in our space that promote that you should train or that you can train facet also say that the anabolic window doesn't exist. Now, those two things cannot exist together unless you would have a union or thinking in that. We have to think of things of multiple factors in the situation of being facet. We have to think about what state are you in? You've depleted your body of circulating nutrients. And while resistant training does stimulate muscle protein synthesis, it also ramps up muscle protein breakdown.

28:55
So order to build muscle tissue, what we all need to realize is you need to be in a state of positive protein balance, where your rates of muscle protein synthesis exceed your rates of muscle protein breakdown. But you cannot do that if, you're fasted and then you don't consume protein afterwards. And so in that case, consuming a protein-centered meal with some carbs as soon as possible after training is wise, as it's going to shift your body from a catabolic state into an anabolic state by maximizing muscle protein synthesis and also decreasing protein breakdown. That's a lot of...

29:24
What a lot of people miss out in our space, we're all sexy on protein. We're all about protein synthesis. A lot of people overlook the muscle protein breakdown perspective. And what you have to realize is, especially in a fasted state, you want to shift your body out of breakdown mode into repair and build mode. However, I'm going to give you another example. If you've had a pre-workout meal, say one to two hours before training, so you train early in morning, but you have a pre-workout meal, or you train after multiple meals. So say that you train in the evening, you've had three meals throughout that day.

29:53
You have to realize that if you had a serving of protein two to three hours, even one to two hours or one to three hours before, your body is still going to be digesting and releasing amino acids into the bloodstream. So you technically already have the raw materials available to support muscle growth and recovery. And since you're not in depleted state, you're not in as much of a rush to slam down a shake or hit that anabolic window. So the anabolic window is real, but it's often misunderstood. It's not a 30 minute emergency refueling window.

30:21
It's not going to shut if you don't act that fast, but it is dependent on what you had previously. So from a practical standpoint, there's no benefit. I really want to get this across. There's no benefit to skipping pre or post-workout fueling, which is why with my clients, I take a nutrient-timing-based approach to optimize their peri-workout nutrition. So I'm looking at the meals they eat before, potentially during if they're a specific context, and then after, because that's going to help them improve training performance, enhance recovery.

30:47
it helps manage appetite pre and post-workout and it ensures their training recovery in a well-fueled state. But when it really comes down to it, the applicability of the anabolic window and how long that lasts, is it an anabolic window or is it a garage door is based on your nutrient status going into that training session. So like I mentioned, if you are fasted, that window becomes much more pertinent to get that post-workout meal in. Whereas if you are someone that has eaten a pre-workout meal before,

31:14
I would not advise you to rush to slam something down. would actually want you to shift out of a sympathetic state, which you are due to training, and get into a parasympathetic state so you've got to optimize digestion and recovery afterwards. And in fact, that's something which I don't hear a lot of people talk about on the other side of the fence that are very big on pre and post workout interest, and you've got to get something within 30 minutes. Then even talk about that uh nervous system response. And this is something which I talk to clients about.

31:42
all of the time, particularly people who do have those digestive issues or um just feel sick. And the last thing they want to do is put something in their system because everything is still trying to get back to some sort of like homeostasis post-training. But I do think that's an important thing to acknowledge that actually some people literally cannot get anything down.

32:07
What I really try to get across to clients is, especially the post-workout meal, I have a lot of people that come from that former bodybuilding background or they are still a physique competitor. And so they're used to literally carrying their food with them to the gym. And I'm not here to interrupt that. If you're trying to eat after you get done at the gym because you have to go to work and it's an uncomfortable environment to eat your prep meal, whatever it may be, I'm in support of that. However, I often will have them do some type of down-regulation activity. That could be a five-minute meditation. That could be some breath work.

32:34
could be just sitting in peace and listening to some binaural beats, something to bring you down from that heightened state. Because think about the context in which we're in or the situation we're in when we're training. We're in a heightened state. You've had catecholamines released, you have cortisol released. And so now you're in this sympathetic state or fight or flight. And that's a good thing because that is going to allow for the release of cortisol, which is a substrate or energy liberating hormone, which is going to help us break down carbohydrates, break down glycogen. It's going to help us break down fatty acids.

33:02
potentially some protein if you're not in a good state. And so in that state, you are not optimized for digestion. You've actually shunted blood from the digestive tract in the gastrointestinal system to your periphery, so to your arms, your legs, or whatever muscle group that you're working. And so we want a little bit of time to just shift out of that mode and not be running or really rushing the meal because we are not what we eat. We are what we absorb, we assimilate, and we utilize. And I find that a lot of individuals who have had that impulse or that habit of rushing into a

33:32
post-workout meal, they often do deal with distension, bloating, gas, all these different digestive discomfort, which aren't necessary. It's not that, you know, and I do work with people with gastrointestinal conditions, IBD, Crohn's, colitis, things like that. However, I'm speaking about someone that doesn't have digestive issues. It's just that they have what I refer to as poor eating hygiene, meaning they don't sit down at a dinner table. They're on their phone or they're on their computer. They're at their work desk doing emails while eating. Like these are all...

33:59
just like we talk about sleep hygiene, I speak to my clients about eating hygiene. I want you in a place that doesn't remind you of a stressful environment. So I want you out of your office. I want you to eat at a place that you're not distracted. I want you to put your fork down in between bites and really focus on chewing slower so that not only are you able to get a satiety effect because satiety is a longer-term signal. So it generally takes like 15 to 20 minutes to hit the brain and really get that satiety response so you can terminate that meal. But also by chewing more and chewing more thoroughly,

34:29
to have more gastric juices, you're have more salivary amylase, and you're going to digest those nutrients a lot more efficiently so that you don't have any issues with GERD or acid reflux or bloating or distention. These are really common things in our society today because everyone's go-go-go. They throw down a meal. I work with a lot of personal trainers and they are the most, they're the number one culprit of this. There are so many personal trainers that say, listen, I just want you to take a break. If you could schedule, instead of just doing back-to-back-to-back sessions,

34:56
Schedule at one point in your day a 30 minute break and just sit in another room or go to your car, listen to something relaxing like music that you really enjoy. And I want you to eat that meal rather than thinking. And a lot of times I'll change actually their meal frequency, especially during a prep, because I have personal trainers that are in the gym, but they think they need to eat six or seven times and four or five of those meals are in a sympathetic state where they're not even getting those nutrients down and then they have digestive issues. So then their waste is blown out, they're descended, they can't pose as well. there's all these downstream ramifications.

35:24
Yeah. And I also think from a psychological aspect, if you're not engaged in that eating moment or that eating period, then it makes it far more likely that your brain is going to seek comfort and pleasure from food elsewhere down the line because it hasn't engaged in the fact that it's already eaten. you may have calories on board, there's so much more to eating than just the food and the nutrients. It's that psychological aspect, in the joy that a lot of people are sort of missing from actually sitting down and eating and really engaged in the process as well.

35:54
Absolutely. Mickey, don't let me go down this rabbit hole too long, but I'm going to just hit a little something that you said just in response. it's based on the distracted eating literature. So there is a lot of studies that look at eating in front of a television as well as eating while viewing social media. And they actually find this is both in the distracted eating literature as well as the mindless eating literature, which shows that you actually don't get the same satiety response. So they have randomized control trials, which you look at the same amount of energy intake where someone is distracted versus where someone's intentionally eating. they're actually um

36:24
savoring their food, they're actually appreciating their food, they're looking at it, they're viewing it, they're not distracted by a screen or media or anything of that sort. And they actually find that subsequent energy intake after those meals is higher when the person is distracted. And really what that comes down to is you're not getting as strong of a satiety response because you've distracted your brain from actually the consumption of meal. also see in studies where we look at ad libinum eating. When people are in a distracted state, and this actually a very

36:52
Interestingly enough, if you eat at a big dinner table with a bunch of family members or with friends or family, a big group, there's research studies from DeCastro back in the 90s, but these still are relevant for today, where the more people that you eat with at a dinner or at a meal, the more calories you need. And basically due to the distracted effect of that. But we also see that in real world because think about Thanksgiving or Christmas or any holiday where it's a big buffet style and there's a bunch of different platters and

37:20
different entrees and things of that sort, we're also engaged in conversation. This isn't for me to say, don't go to your holiday. That is what I'm saying is if you are essentially making a lot of your meals in a state where you're not intentional and you're not paying attention to the food, you are going to set yourself up for a lack of satiety and appetite dysregulation. And we're in a world where there's way too many inputs. There's way too many environmental factors. There's way too many food cues that many people are passively over consuming food.

37:49
And that's why they don't have the body composition that they want. You need to really set yourself up for success. So try to be intentional when you go for your meal, put down the phone, put down the computer, or put away the emails and the distraction. If you're going to sit and have a conversation with a friend or family member, by all means do so, but put your fork down in between bites. Don't be like chewing with your mouth full and speaking and really getting distracted in that situation. Yeah, absolutely. Because everything that you've discussed that can help amplify that

38:18
engagement in food can be implemented when you're at a dinner table. So don't have to be sitting by yourself with just like a candle in a rose and just looking at outside the window or whatever. Now, Brandon, before we get onto insulin sensitivity, which I'm interested to hear the nutrient timing aspect of how nutrient timing can impact on insulin sensitivity around training, have we covered everything that we think people need to know about how

38:48
pre post-workout nutrition can influence hypertrophy, recovery, or even actually energy partitioning. And this is something that you haven't yet touched on. No, let's definitely get into that. I think it's important for people to understand both the mechanisms and then I can get into some of the practical applications later on. We'll do the mechanisms, then we'll go into the effects of insulin sensitivity, because that is very applicable for resistance training in particular. And then we'll go through some of the more practical application stuff. when most people think about

39:16
pre post workout nutrition, they usually think of the impacts on energy levels and recovery. And those are big ticket benefits, don't get me wrong, but there's several lesser known benefits that are equally important. So we'll go through some of like the hypertrophy first, and then I'll get into some of the unknown ones that I sent you over that I really wanted to get into. So when we look at muscle glycogen status and anabolic signaling, carbs around training not only fuel your resistance training sessions, but they also impact cellular signaling. And it's cellular signaling that's involved in muscle growth.

39:44
So when you train with low muscle glycogen, you activate AMP-K sensors essentially, which is basically your cells like energy sensor. And when AMP-K is activated or elevated, it can inhibit mTOR, which is the key pathway responsible for muscle protein synthesis. So we see that when someone's in a carb-depleted state, it can blunt some of their anabolic signaling.

40:04
Now, this is not an on off switch. want people to really realize this is kind of like a dimmer dial. But if you want to put yourself in the most advantageous position, you want to consume carbs before and after training because it's going to help keep muscle glycogen levels higher. It's going to reduce that MK activation and it's going to allow mTORC to do its job. So it's essentially creating a more favorable environment for muscle growth beyond just calories in, calories out. Then from there, we have to look at insulin's anti-antibiotic effects because consuming carbs around training

40:31
can also enhance muscle growth and maintenance through the secretion of insulin. And really, insulin has so many broad-based effects. I think it's been mostly demonized in our sphere. There's the carbohydrate insulin model of obesity that's been debunked more times than we can even count, but it's still prevalent. Now, if we're just looking at it from a muscle growth perspective, and I do want to just acknowledge that insulin does have anorectic effects, so it actually does decrease appetite.

40:55
That is something we can get to on another day, but it has several anti-catabolic and anabolic effects. So, we're going to see a lowering of muscle protein breakdown. So, it's essentially decreasing protein degradation, which is why you'll hear a lot of people in our space say that carbs have a protein sparing effect. It's going to lower cortisol levels and it's going to lower catabolism as a result. It's going to increase glycogen replenishment. We actually see that insulin in and of itself stimulates the mTORF pathway and it also assists with the conversion of GH to IGF-1. If you actually look at GH, it is not an anabolic hormone.

41:25
is conversion of liver. So, growth hormone in and of itself is not an anabolic, especially in muscle tissue. If you actually look at the studies on muscle tissue, it increases lean body mass, but it's mostly through water and fluid accumulation. It is not anabolic to muscle tissue in and of itself. It is when it gets converted in the liver via the interaction with insulin to IGF-1 that it becomes an anabolic hormone. really when it comes down to it, insulin is very important because we often really focus on stimulating MPS, like I referred to before.

41:54
But muscle protein degradation or breakdown is just as important in carbs, especially when they're paired with protein, trigger an insulin release, which are catabolic for muscle. And so those are some of the effects that would be really advantageous to know about. Now, you had asked me, Al Fera, enhanced nutrient partitioning and also insulin sensitivity. And that's probably one of the most underappreciated effects of resistance training, because it makes your muscles more insulin sensitive. So during and after resistance training, we have Glut4 transporters, which migrate to the muscle cell membrane. And that allows for glucose.

42:24
uptake that's independent of insulin. So generally, when we are to increase glucose absorption or glucose uptake into the cell, it's an insulin dependent process. So that means insulin has to find an insulin receptor to allow that glucose in. However, when you have gone through the process of resistance training in particular or any type of muscular contraction, you're able to get those Glut4 transporters to translocate out to the outer edge of the cell to allow glucose in in a non-insulin dependent manner. So this means that you can

42:53
have better absorption and carbohydrate tolerance in that post-workout period when you actually refuel with carbohydrates, and they're more likely to be stored as glycogen or oxides for recovery, not stored as fat. this improves your nutrient partitioning as the calories you consume in this window, especially post-workout, are more likely to go to muscle and not fat. Now, one thing that many don't realize is that going into a resistance training session fasted and hungry can decrease training performance. So this is something I often hear the individuals that are very

43:23
a big fan or proponent of fasted training, they never acknowledge that we actually have literature that shows that skipping pre-workout feeding, especially skipping pre-workout carbohydrates, can actually decrease training volume performance as a result of the hunger that it increases. And we've seen in research that pre-workout meals, especially those with carbs and some type of volume, so it has to be something that's somewhat satiating. It has been shown to increase satiety and suppress hunger, which can increase volume performance. And over the past few years, there's a researcher named Naharuddin and his team have done

43:53
a fascinating series of studies and they've investigated how pre-workout nutrition or lack thereof impacts resistant training performance and particularly in the aspect of hunger and satiety. So because I'm a nutrition guy, I'm really big into these. But really what they've done is they've done a series of studies, which are very similar, where they've compared bench press and squat workouts on two different occasions. And in one occasion, the first study that they did, I believe they had them come into the lab and they came in fascinated and only consumed water.

44:19
And then in the other occasion, they were fasted, but they consumed a high carb meal before they started training. So in most states that came in, they were either given water or high carb meal. And in the high carb meal condition, they completed more reps and had higher total training volume performance. And they also reported greater fullness, reduced hunger, and a lower desire to eat during the workout. Now, in their last and most recent study, what they did was they wanted to see the impact of actual, not only carbohydrate intake, but actual appetite and satiety. So what they did was they had two

44:49
meals that they came in on separate occasions and they do the same workout, same bench press and same squat workout that they had done in the original study. Well, in one condition, they had a semi-solid viscous carb meal, which was more satiating. And then the other one, they actually had a liquid carb meal, but both were matched for both calories and carbohydrates. And despite identical nutritional content, the semi-solid meal produced greater fullness and lower hunger. So, was more voluminous. So, we can compare this to, say you had a serving of oats as compared to carbohydrate power, it would be that kind of comparison.

45:19
Well, when they actually looked at the resistance training outcomes, the participants who had, when they had the viscous meal or the more satiating meal, they completed 10 % more reps on squat following the semi-solid meal. So really what it comes down to is both carbohydrate ingestion as well as having some type of satiating meal or some type of satiating substance beforehand will impact training performance by increasing satiety because

45:44
When you are in a hungry state and anyone that has dieted and really went into the gym hungry, it's distracting, but it also increases perceived exertion. And so when it comes down to it, we want to put ourselves in a position where we're not hungry and we're actually well-fueled. And what I find really ironic is a lot of people that are in fat loss phases, they will go towards, they'll be more likely to utilize, know, facet training and they think it's a tool, but actually you're in a more disadvantageous position because first you're going in facet and you're already in a state of muscle protein breakdown.

46:14
and you're in a deficit, which is a catabolic condition in and of itself. And then if you're experiencing higher hunger or signaling, because of the fact that you are in a deficit and say leptin is down, ghrel ends up, your training performance is already inhibited and you're going to make that worse by not having some pre-workout fueling. Now, the last thing I want to discuss is how pre-workout fueling impacts training volume performance. And there was a recent systematic review out of Eric Helms' And I know we are both big fans of Eric Helms, shout out to him. But they found that pre-workout carbs improve performance most

46:42
When training sessions last 45 minutes or longer, when you're coming off an overnight fast and training in morning, or when you're training a larger group of muscles like your lower body or multiple muscle groups during a workout, which is going to increase the energy cost of that session. So in those conditions, carbs are more aerogenic from a training volume performance perspective. And if you can progress your training volume over time, you will make greater gains. That's one of the best ways to achieve progressive overload. So there's many mechanisms in which

47:10
pre-workout feeling, especially from a carbohydrate perspective, can be very advantageous for those that are trying to maximize muscle gain and they're really trying to maximize their training performance in order to yield greater gains in the gym. Well, it's super interesting because a lot of the arguments I see online almost never mention carbohydrate because one of the prevailing messages out there on the flip side is you must contain, no, sorry, you must consume 15 grams of protein in that pre-workout meal to get a really good sort

47:40
regardless of whether you're doing uh resistance or aerobic training, 15 grams of protein. So a lot of the arguments are saying that there's actually no evidence to support that you need any amount of protein before training in order to, because the muscle protein synthesis outcomes are same. But of course, to your point, you're talking about carbohydrate, and almost no one's really mentioning that at all, actually, Brendan, which is super interesting.

48:09
Yeah. So, this is not to dispute the fact that protein is essential. I would not put someone into a state of hypo-aminolacidemia. I would want them in hyper-aminolacidemia, meaning they have amino acids in the substrate. But a lot of the research on pre-workout feeding is on carbohydrates. What's interesting is you mentioned the 15-gram protein statistic. And the person that utilizes that study, what she often overlooks, and this is not a shot at her by any means, but I have looked into this literature very heavily, is there's a

48:38
pair of studies out of Abby Smith Ryan's lab. She does some great research. what the one study with the low protein dose, what a lot of people overlook is... So, let me just give a background because you and I know what I'm talking about, but the audience might not. So, there's a pair of studies out of Abby Smith Ryan's lab and really what they showed and what their people, when they will discuss this study, they always talk about it in the context of the fact that consuming protein pre-workout has been shown to increase post-exercise energy expenditure and fat oxidation levels. And so,

49:05
these are in women. these are really like it caters towards that crowd. But if you actually look at the studies, the 2019 study is actually a poker, I think. I know that Eric Trexler is an author on that. And this is a study that found that they had better post-exercise fat oxidation. But the combination wasn't just protein. It was 25 grams of protein and 60 grams of carbs. So, they were getting both the muscle synthetic response and they're also getting a decrease in protein degradation. And then the next study, it was pre-workout protein shake.

49:33
it was done in this hit interval type of it was like a hit type of resistance training session. It was a very weird type of uh stimulus. That did show a stronger thermic and metabolic effect from that protein meal. But I don't think that the research that people use to substantiate the fact that protein is necessary disputes the fact that carbohydrates are beneficial. Now, am I saying any of these things are necessary? No. If we had a priority list, I would say protein first,

49:58
carbohydrate second, but a lot of the research that's actually done on pre-workout feeding is on carbohydrates. And if we were to go to the endurance training literature, that I'm not as well, nowhere near as well versed as you are, it would show that most of that literature is on carbohydrate ingestion before. Yeah, no, it totally is. And in fact, it's interesting because you talk about AMPK, and I think I sent this to an email, in an email to you as well, is that if we look at endurance adaptations, in fact, what we want in the endurance space, particularly in m

50:26
people who are trying to improve that fat oxidation. In fact, we want to avoid carbohydrate pre-training to help increase that AMPK to allow for those adaptations to take place. Not in all sessions and not from now until forever, and not at the expense of calories because protein and fat allows for the AMPK to be increased. uh

50:54
carbohydrates suppresses that. And so it is interesting because it's all context and it's all nuance and it all really depends on, you know, what situation are we talking about? having a blanket message one way or the other is actually super unhelpful for most people in that case. Yeah, nice one. Hey, so we've, we mentioned, talk to me actually Brandon about cortisol and you mentioned this at the outset and when it is important, when it's not, but how do changes in cortisol affect

51:24
recovery or muscle breakdown in these extended training sessions? What is an extended training session, by the way? Like what timeframe are we talking about? And how does it mitigate a by pre or peri workout nutrition? Absolutely. Mickey, if you don't mind, let me just like clear the air on cortisol first, because last time you called me off guard with a question about cortisol and I should have just cleared up right then when you asked me about fashion training the last time I was on and I had other people in my audience that were kind of like, Hey, is cortisol good? Is it bad? And there's

51:51
really just so much within this industry. Right now, cortisol is the demonized hormone and it's getting its time in the light. It's a hormone that often gets a bad rap in the fitness industry and it's really having its time in the sun right now and it's getting demonized without due justice, essentially. Cortisol, and I'm going to speak about this in the context of resistance training, so I want you guys to realize this will always be very specific to that. But cortisol is actually a normal and necessary part of the adaptive response exercise because when you train hard, cortisol increases to help mobilize fuel.

52:21
And that could include breaking down glycogen, fat, and yes, some protein in some specific ah circumstances. But that is to meet the demands of your training. So the issue is in cortisol itself, but more so excessive or prolonged cortisol elevation. And the reason that that's an issue is because it can be counterproductive by promoting muscle protein breakdown, and it can delay recovery if it stays high post-workout. And this is especially important for those who train with very long sessions, high volumes,

52:48
those who are in a deficit because cortisol already is increased during a deficit in most circumstances, and then those with high life stress, as these are all factors that can elevate cortisol even more. Now, this is where a smart nutrient timing strategy, especially pre and intra-workout carbs, can make a big difference. So consuming carbohydrates help to maintain muscle glycogen and blood glucose levels, which reduces the body's need to essentially secrete or produce excess cortisol in order to liberate glucose from glycogen, or even amino acids.

53:15
And this is because carbs increase the secretion of insulin, which is counter regulatory to cortisol. So when we have an increase in insulin, especially a significant increase in insulin, it's going to blunt that cortisol response because by ingesting carbs, essentially, you're giving your body the fuel it needs in an exogenous form. So it doesn't need to break down your own tissues to liberate fuel. Now, what's very interesting about this is that we have really great research looking at the use of intra workout carbohydrates to help mitigate excess cortisol production.

53:44
and the increase in protein breakdown and muscle catabolism that can come with very hard training sessions and high cortisol levels. So there is a study by Torpenning and Collies. And I got to give a shout out to one of my mentors, Dr. Scott Stevenson. He showed me the study like literally 10 or 15 years ago, and it stayed stuck in my mind. it's one that it's a great example. And I think it's kind of been overlooked by many people that demonize cortisol. And they say, hey, we don't want excessively high cortisol. What we have to realize is that actually in other research studies, when we look at training intensity,

54:13
individuals that train the hardest had the highest increase in cortisol. Now, that is a marker that you are actually training hard. What we don't want is runaway cortisol where we don't inhibit or mitigate it through our nutritional strategy. So, in the tarpending study, essentially what they did was they took a group of males and they put them on a 12-week resistant training program. And in one group, they gave them a non-chloric placebo drink. And the other group, they gave them a 6 % carbohydrate solution. And when it comes out to it, it was actually

54:41
a Gatorade powder essentially. So it was just a Gatorade drink essentially. And those who received the intro workout shake experienced an increase in blood glucose, an elevation in insulin, and then a reduction in cortisol during their training sessions and afterwards. they didn't get, they had an initial increase in cortisol, but it was essentially blunted. And so when the research group looked, they correlated the change in muscle fiber size with the changes in cortisol during this training intervention. And they found that taking in carbs, which helps us suppress excess cortisol levels during and after the workout,

55:10
with their adaptations to training. So what they found was when cortisol levels were suppressed more, there was a greater increase in muscle fiber size. So basically, those who were able to attenuate or to ameliorate the increase in cortisol or excess cortisol, especially in the post-workout period, they experienced the greatest muscle growth. So we do need cortisol for the training adaptation process because it's going to help mobilize fuel. If you didn't have cortisol, if you had someone that was in adrenal insufficiency and they didn't have a cortisol,

55:37
response, they wouldn't have the energy to actually go in. They wouldn't have that sympathetic fight and flight response. And they wouldn't really be able to get themselves up. They'd kind of be like flat lines in the gym. But we don't want that to be excessive. And we want to actually mitigate that through nutritional support, which is going to decrease the excess breakdown and the slower recovery capacity. So on a singular or an acute basis, if you have one session that you can't get carbs after, don't worry about it. You may have high cortisol in that instance, but it's really the prolonged effect. Like this was a 12-week uh

56:07
resistance training intervention. it's not looking at the time course of one single study or one single day of training. is how does this apply over time? And that's where pre and intra workout carbs, even a modest amount like 20 to 30 grams can really be helpful because it's going to provide a readily available fuel source. It's going to stabilize blood glucose levels during training. It's going to lower those cortisol levels and it's going to lead to less muscle protein breakdown. And it generally has

56:32
This is what I see in practice is there's better subjective energy during the workout. And this is like the one piece of feedback I received most from my clients who prior to working with me had been undercarbing themselves and under fueling in general. So this is a way to just shift yourself out of that. And really when it comes down to it, it can be done in one of two ways. We can utilize it into a workout or we could utilize it in a post-workout window. It's just that we want to have in some close proximity to the elevation cortisol. We want to ameliorate that with the carbohydrate ingestion. And I suppose

57:00
to decide whether it's intra-workout or post-workout might be in part due to how someone currently feeling in their workouts. Like if they're going into their workouts and noticing that they're feeling flat, they're not able to hit the numbers that they anticipate or would like to, then maybe they should trial the intra-workout carbohydrate to see whether that's going to help. But of course, why wouldn't they just do pre? How long is an extended training session? Like what in your mind is a long time in the gym, Brandon? So I'll just tell you based off my experience. Generally, if we're getting to 90 minutes and above,

57:30
That's when I would look into utilizing intra-workout supplementation. so generally, now it's going to matter on someone's rest periods, their actual aerobic fitness, because we have to realize that actually the resynthesis of ATP is an aerobic process in between sets. So if I have someone that is newer to the gym or they've just gotten out of shape, um they may have a 90-minute session, but it's because they have to take very long rest intervals. So it's really going to come down to a multi-pronged approach or a multi-pronged look at this. I have to look at the total training session volume.

57:59
the amount of muscle groups being worked, the rest period in between each set, and then the total session duration, as well as what does the rest of their day look like? So is this an individual that just trains once, say, one session three times a week? Does this person train six times a week, but they also do cardio, not only on their off day, but also later on that day or in the morning? So it really comes down to how much input or how much essentially energy flux, how much energy are they pulling through the system through?

58:28
exercise, especially intentional training like resistance training. Yeah. Okay. Now, is there any utility for an essential amino acid powder pre-workout? Like I see some people mentioning that. I mentioned that to a few people as well over the years. I've not really, I'm much more now like get in some protein or get in some carbs before training, particularly in the calorie deficit. But like, what about if someone takes an essential amino acid powder? Is there any point in that, Brandon? So if an individual

58:56
cannot get a pre-workout meal in. So say for instance, they are someone, I'll give you a very specific instance. I have a few women that I work with that if I didn't intervene, they would train fasted, but they don't get the best performance from that, but they have GI conditions. um So one of them has Crohn's, one has colitis. So these are things where they can't have a whole food meal because, and this is multifactorial in this, they not only have GI conditions, but they also train very early in the morning and they're pressed for time and they have to...

59:22
be done with their sessions and back before they need to get their kids ready for school. So in this specific instance, both these women are training between like four to 430 AM. So very early in the morning, I'm not going to ask them to wake up 90 minutes in advance where if they had eaten a meal 90 minutes advance, they would be fine. So that's a situation where I actually utilize intra-workout nutrition, but I do it as like a multitasking activity. I had them already have it preset, it's in the fridge and they start sipping and it's a combination.

59:48
of highly brain-cyclic dextrin, which is a high molecular weight carbohydrate, which has a very quick gastric emptying time, which means it gets right into the bloodstream very quickly, and essential amino acids. I don't use brain chain amino acids because that's only three. We want all nine essential amino acids, but even just there's some older, older research that looks at six grams of essential amino acids and it could shift you into a state of positive protein balance. when you actually look at the literature on essential amino acids,

01:00:13
around 10 grams is where you can optimize. Like 10 to 12 grams would be similar to like a 25 gram scoop of protein. So I would advise like 10 plus grams. And you can use that almost as like a protein replacement. If you are someone that either whey or another protein source doesn't sit right with you, or you're someone that you literally can't have anything but liquids, at least it's a multitasking activity. will have individuals where you have that preset in their refrigerator, they get downstairs, they're

01:00:38
getting ready for the gym, getting dressed. I'm having them sip on that. They sip on it and they're ready to go the gym and they continue sipping on it throughout their workout. I want them to at least get half of it down because it's not just about having amino acid availability and glucose availability. We also need hydration electrolytes. So I'm including whether it be an electrolyte blend in that product or I'm just putting in some sea salt in there just to make sure that they're going into that training workout or the training session in the best state possible where they're not only nutrient depleted,

01:01:07
but they're also insufficiently hydrated and dehydrated because we see just like a one to 2 % decrement or decrease in hydration can lead to an increase in perceived exertion and also a decrease in actual training output. yeah, no, that makes perfect sense. And I guess to your point like of the length of the training session, like 90 minutes, that's quite a long time. In two hours, that's quite a long time. I don't know if I'd want you to program my gym sessions if that's how long I have to spend, Brandon.

01:01:36
It all comes down to the individual. So I have people training 30 to 45 minutes, and then I have very physique focused individuals that are training 90 plus minutes. So it really comes down to really what that person's goal is. Also with their lifestyle is there are some people that love these long gym sessions and they only want to go three or four times a week. And then I have other people that are like, listen, can we do five 45 minute sessions? It's going to be the same total time across the gym or across the week, but they want to compress.

01:02:00
Totally. And I suppose then if you've got individuals who are in the gym for 45, 50 minutes, intra-workout is nowhere near as important. And in fact, they're probably going to be better on a pre-workout or making sure they're getting that post-workout nutrition in. So it's going to depend. Maybe I can go through my structure of things because the intra-workout is very interesting in terms of when do I utilize it? It's going to be in very specific use cases. But when it comes down to how I approach

01:02:29
pre and then post-workout really focus on. You had asked me a question about like, does it differ in a fat loss phase versus a muscle building phase? And I want to be transparent about this. How I structure peri-workout nutrition does not drastically change whether a client is in a fat loss phase or a muscle building phase because the principles and approach remain very similar. My goal is always the same. It's the fuel performance, preserve or build muscle and then enhance or covered. Now, while the structures

01:02:58
consistent, the amount change depending on that client's energy demands, their training volume and frequency, and those phase-specific goals. So if we were to start with pre-workout nutrition, regardless of the phase I have a client in, I aim to design their pre-workout meal so that they can walk in the gym well-fueled, hydrated, and not distracted by hunger or digestive discomfort. Because we covered previously how even just having hunger signaling can inhibit or can have detrimental effects on your training performance.

01:03:25
With most of the clients that I work with, resistant training is their primary form of exercise, which I'm going to use to drive their body composition progress. We know that resistant training is a glucose-dependent anaerobic activity. So, I'm going to prioritize protein and carbs in that pre-workout meal. I have a few goals that I really think of. It's almost like a hierarchical principle, high priority principles that I utilize every time that I build out a pre-workout meal with a client. I want an adequate dose of protein to increase amino acid availability.

01:03:52
that will stimulate muscle protein synthesis and mitigate excess protein breakdown. I want to include carbohydrates for glucose availability, for the preferred fuel of resistance training, and then for blood sugar stability because that's another thing that I see. A lot of people have blood sugar crashes in the gym. So, I want to make sure that they are well-suited from a blood sugar perspective because not only can that hamper energy, but also a lot of people when they have a blood sugar crash, they also have a really concomitant increase in hunger. So, we already know hunger can impact performance. So, I want to make sure that I'm

01:04:22
nailing everything. I also want to avoid GI distress. So these will usually look like lower fiber, easily digestible food sources, food sources. And I want them to go into the session hydrated with both fluids and electrolytes. So that pre-workout meal will have a dose of sodium in it. And so then after we finish training, we want to use our post-workout nutrition to shift into refuel and repair mode. So the goals of my post-workout nutrition that I build out for clients is to first replenish glycogen source, is to stimulate muscle proteins in the cysts and reduce muscle protein breakdown.

01:04:51
I'm going lower cortisol and shift them into that parasympathetic state for recovery. And we want to begin the recovery and adaptation process. So to do this, I'm usually going to use a high protein, high carb, and low to moderate fat meal. Now, another thing that I like to utilize, especially from a carbohydrate perspective, is multiple transportable carbs. So I will use a glucose source, and then I'll also use a fructose source. So this could look very simply like rice and pineapple. I'm going to have rice, which is going to go through the sodium glucose dependent transporter.

01:05:21
then I'm going to go through the Glut5 transporter with the fruit. So, we have multiple carriers that are going to be able to absorb glucose into the intestines. And that's going to increase glucose absorption and reduce GI distress. And with fruit, especially for those that train early in the morning, fruit helps to replenish liver glycogen, which is usually depleted after fasting or early morning training. So, those are things that I'm looking at. Now, I did discuss with you ah previously, but I do just want to further emphasize that one thing that I really try to drill down with clients about, especially when we're talking like

01:05:50
A lot of times people will conflate or misconstrue the fact that I'm an advocate of nutrient timing and think that I believe in the anabolic window and think that it's like, you know, I'm really like hard and staunch on it. And what I try to get across is that with clients, especially is to not rush eating immediately after training. You're sympathetic flight in flight state. So you want to cool down, do some deep breathing or even go on a relaxed drive home to shift you into rest and digest mode. And so those are things that I really utilize with all clients across the board.

01:06:19
Now, I can also go over the specific differences in terms of how I approach peri-workout nutrition and fat loss phases versus building phases. I think that would be really helpful. Absolutely. So, in fat loss phases, let's think about the actual goal. We need to create an energy deficit. So, you're to have fewer total calories available. So, in my opinion, nutrient timing becomes even more strategic and more important because the goal is to preserve muscle. So, we want to make sure that really around that training window, we're putting you in the most advantageous position to

01:06:46
Maintain your training performance because that is going to be the stimulus that's going to help with muscle preservation. And then also we want to be able to enhance recovery to the best of our ability. So when I'm constructing like the peri-workout nutrition, I'm going to keep most carbs around training. So it's going to be pre-imposed and I'm going to keep fats low in the peri-workout window. And then I'm going to structure other meals around protein, veg, and fiber to enhance the tidy and fat loss outside that peri-workout window. And so when we go to a muscle building phase, the goals are a little bit opposite.

01:07:16
Now still trying to maximize body composition. We're still trying to put them into a nutrient replete state, but there's more calories to work with. So meals can be larger and food sources can be more flexible. in a phallus phase, I'm going to use more like lower energy density food sources. I'm going to use fruit in a lot of these meals, lean proteins in a lot of these meals to satisfy them without going over on calories. But we can be more flexible in those muscle building phases because the goal is to optimize recovery and performance to support progressive overload. Now, the one thing I do do in a muscle building phase is I'll put, you

01:07:45
the highest carbon take into the post-workout meal and I'll make this the largest meal of the day. Whereas a lot of times, in a fat loss phase, I'll usually do it pre-workout. And so, this is like some big differences between the two, but generally, it's going to be the same type of principles that I'm approaching this with. I'm fueling for the work required and making sure that we're also enhancing recovery. Okay, cool. And so, even though there's going to be more carbohydrate in the pre-workout meal and then less in the...

01:08:11
post-workout meal, they've got enough on board to help them recover for the next time that they're training. Because I guess I suppose they're not, most people you're working with aren't going to be hitting the gym within eight hours or anything like that, which would require, yeah. Because I think this is one in those cases, I would utilize, there would be specific carbohydrate timing. Like I do have some athletes that I work with. I do have some like high rocks individuals that do two a day training sessions. And that's really, I mean, I'm really, that's where I'm much more specific with carbohydrates.

01:08:37
Yeah. Oh, yeah. I actually, I had a chat to my friend Darren and in fact, it's being released today all about the entertainment fitness in high rocks. And I love the idea of high rocks. I would never do it because I'm not at all coordinated enough. And he bloody hates it. It was hilarious actually. Like I wasn't expecting him to be so passionately against something like high rocks, but I think it's great to get people in doing something. ask you, I've not listened to the episode.

01:09:03
Was it because it's so varied? Because from a resistance training perspective, that's my background and that's my expertise. The one issue that I have with a lot of these multimodal training systems is that it's constant variation and constant stimulation. And often they're chasing variety for entertainment, essentially, rather than chasing progressive overload to enhance adaptations. And so a lot of times I get individuals, whether it be from CrossFit, from group classes like F45 and things that are popular here, or even from HiRox,

01:09:33
they almost have what I would refer to as workout ADHD, meaning they're constantly bouncing from idea. They're the prototypical um program hopper. And a lot of times they don't realize that neurological adaptations take four to six weeks at a minimum to substantiate themselves. if you're continuing, say every four weeks you jump on a new training program, you're going to see progress every four weeks because from week one to four, you're going to be making progressions. But that's from a neurological adaptation where essentially your nervous system is getting more ingrained motor unit, you know,

01:10:03
recruiting patterns, and it's also becoming more technically proficient at a movement. However, that doesn't mean that you're actually fully recruiting all the motor units and all the muscle fibers needed in that exercise. So you're actually not getting morphological adaptations, which are what lead to muscular growth and muscular adaptations. Okay. So a couple of points. One from Darren, he calls it, I can't remember what he called it, but he is from CrossFit and I think he's got a beef of it.

01:10:30
because he's like fake CrossFit or it's like lazy CrossFit or something. So his critique of it is quite different to what yours is, but maybe you both arrive at the same place. Whereas I was laughing to myself because you were talking about people chasing the variety in their exercise and that's a hundred percent me. And in fact, what is quite funny is this year, Brandon, out of all the years, this is actually like quite a departure from our conversation, but.

01:10:57
I've been doing my pull-ups. I'm like, right, I'm going to do six pull-ups a day so I can average, so I can end up with 2,025 pull-ups this year. know, 20, Good for you, Miki. Let's go. Thank you. Thank you. But I've now reached this point. I have to buy myself one of those belts that I then can hang a weight from because I do need more weight on them. But what I know of myself is actually I always chase that neurological progress. And so every four weeks,

01:11:26
I'm changing things up. I'd be the worst. To actually follow a structured program for longer than four weeks would be an absolute miracle. This is one thing I've been really consistently working on all year. And I've actually, and I absolutely noticed gains from doing the pull-ups. But I appreciate what you're saying with regards to why you don't, as a purist, you don't love the idea of high rocks from its muscle-building. Absolutely. From a conceptual basis, it's not that I have any issue with it. It's more so.

01:11:56
People come to me to maximize their physique progression. They're looking for increasing muscle mass and decreasing fat mass, and they want a lean muscular physique. And when someone asks me, what is the best way to do that? 100%, 10 times out of 10, I'm going to say progressive resistant training. We're going to take a hypertrophy centric model. I'm going to utilize periodization throughout your programming. So we're going to break things up into micro cycles. We're going to have mesocycles that build upon each other. And there are going to be what I would call key performance indicators, which are movements that are going to stay in most of the time.

01:12:24
we're really going to try to progress your ability to either lift more load or lift more reps for the same amount of sets. And we're going to look to achieve progressive overload over time those movements to ensure that what the gains that you're making in the gym from a strength or rep progression perspective are not just due to swapping out exercises constantly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, totally. I totally get that. um So now

01:12:48
In closing then Brandon, because I feel like we've covered everything. I know you're in a tight timeframe because I accidentally scheduled this podcast for slowly later than what we anticipated. I feel like you've given us such a great structure for how you think about pre, during and post workout nutrition and scaling it for, regardless for whether it's a fat loss goal or a sort of muscle building goal. And of course, talked about that cortisol, which

01:13:15
people, I've got questions about it even from my webinar today about cortisol in training. Is there anything else or anything that you want to leave people with with regards to your perspective on peri-workout nutrition? Yeah, I wanted, because this is something that you had posed to me and I think it would be advantageous for both for our audiences if I specifically go through who I utilize intra-workout nutrition with and then potentially some of the myths and misconceptions that I see.

01:13:44
because maybe covering those can just give a heads up to individuals where they hear things in the space and they realize, all right, now I understand why this person, it could be an evidence-based individual, but why they're saying this, and now I'm able to investigate it further. I really think that if I could, I like to empower people with education, but oftentimes it's more so me bringing awareness to something and then saying, listen, I've substantiated my arguments with evidence. However, I want you to go look for yourself. And a lot of times I get DMs or emails and someone said, hey, listen, I heard you speak on a podcast.

01:14:14
you cited this study, I read it and it's not that I'm a hundred percent right all the time, but it shifted my viewpoint on something. And if I can get that across to one or two people, it's a mission accomplished. So I'll start with intra-workout nutrition, then I'll go to that. And so you would ask me a question, essentially you were looking for like what specific context or what type of people do I utilize intra-workout nutrition with? And you had specifically asked me about that's a training, long sessions, and then athletes. And so

01:14:41
Personally, intra-workout nutrition is a strategy I've used with many clients over the years, but that's because I've coached a lot of physique enthusiasts, intermediate to advanced trainees who are looking to maximize their muscle growth, and physique athletes. However, it's not something I would say every single person needs. If you're doing a short 30 to 45 minute low volume training session, and you've had a proper pre-workout meal, you've got all the fuel that you need on board. Your body already has enough sort of glycogen, and you have circulating glucose to support performance without needing to sip on extra carbs mid-set.

01:15:10
For those people, if you're training low to moderate volume or low to moderate intensity, essentially, intra-workout nutrition isn't a necessity. Now, there are a few specific use cases where I believe intra-workout nutrition makes sense. Fasted morning training, I have some clients, like I mentioned, that train very early in the morning. That could be because they're trying to get in a session before work or before taking their kids to school. In this specific context, there are some individuals which wouldn't be able to tolerate carbohydrates pre-workout. In that case, I will have

01:15:40
individuals utilize, like I had mentioned before, some type of high molecular weight carbohydrates such as cycloidextrin with essential amino acids. And really what I want to do is to get a bolus dose of essential amino acids to stimulate muscle protein synthesis and to shift them out of that catabolic state and carbs to decrease protein breakdown and then also stabilize blood glucose. The second case would be longer high volume sessions. And that's in a case, like I mentioned, generally I'm saying 90 minutes, but that could even be 75 to 90 minutes if someone's training at a very high

01:16:08
intensity, meaning very close proximity to failure. So if I have someone at zero reps and reserve, they're really pushing things, I might utilize an intra-workout formula, specifically consuming carbs, because we see that consuming carbs during prolonged and resistant training can help maintain blood glucose, it reduces perceived exertion and fatigue, and lowers more arcers of muscle damage post-training. So what I often will do, I will use a dose of between 15 to 50 grams of carbs intra-workout, depending on the length of the session.

01:16:37
And I've had plenty of clients that tell me that they notice that they have more stable energy, better work capacity, so they see less drop-off between sets and then less soreness, is why, know, less soreness like when I've included an intra into their workouts. Now, the other context, and this is probably most applicable to your audience, are athletes or those training twice a day. So I will also use intra-workout nutrition for the athletes I work with who specifically either train multiple times per day or anyone with an extremely high output. And

01:17:05
Right now I'm working actually with someone that just came to me and he's a cyclist and he's trying to get into like where he actually starts competing. He's a low level cyclist. He just got into this, but his output, like I'm seeing like his Watts and his actual energy expenditure calculations and they're quite high. And it's like, I want to make sure that he's fueled for those sessions, but it's also like a multitasking activity because he's spending three hours on the bike. So it's like, that's a time period in which if I didn't have intro workout during that session, whether it be a goo, I'm utilizing actual liquid carbohydrates with him.

01:17:35
but it could be any type of easily digested carbohydrate, we would be missing that opportunity to feed. So with athletes, if I have someone that lifts in the morning and then has to practice or another training session in the afternoon, I'll start the replenishment process during the lift to help them show up in the second session better recovered. So really what that looks like is a protein and carb mix intro workout to help maintain hydration, fuel output, and reduce a muscle breakdown, all while getting in additional calories.

01:18:01
for those high expenditure athletes that need to their protein target or need to hit their energy targets. So those are like the specific cases that I'll utilize intra-workout nutrition with. But I do want to get it across. Like I've been a fan of this. I worked in the supplement industry for more than 10 years. I formulated intra-workout nutrition products, but I still will always be very transparent and honest with the fact that I don't think everyone needs them. And I don't think everyone would benefit them because there are many cases where I have someone in a fat loss phase and they have a constrained energy budget. working with 110 pound female.

01:18:31
that needs to 15 to 1600 calories a day? Am I really going to devote 50 grams of carbs and 200 calories towards a liquid drink that provides absolutely no satiety? To me, from a coaching perspective, it may on paper, physiologically, it may be optimal for her training session to make sure she's in a deficit so she's in a low glycogen state. But from a coaching practice and practical standpoint, I don't find that to be advantageous when someone is really struggling with hunger.

01:18:56
Yeah. No, that makes perfect sense. It makes perfect sense, Brendan. And then finally, myths or oversimplifications? All right. So, you have anything else you want to add? No, no, you go for it. All right. So, I really, I had to think about this. You had sent this over to me and I really wanted to get down to a couple that have really, I guess, gone to an extreme because really when it comes down to this topic, many people live at the extremes. So, we have one side that treats it like it's the gospel. You have to nutrient time. You have to hit your post-workout window. It's 30 minutes.

01:19:25
It's either bullseye or bust. And then we have others who think that it literally has no utility. It doesn't matter as long as you get your macros. And honestly, I think that's the myth that frustrates me the most. We're living in an era which I like to refer to as evidence-based nihilism. And people will cherry pick data to claim that nothing beyond total calories matter. And don't get me wrong, calories and macros are the foundation. But when we stop there, we ignore the nuances that can actually help someone optimize their performance, their recovery, and their body composition.

01:19:55
So that first myth is nutrient timing doesn't matter, just hit your macros. And I really think that this stems from a misinterpretation of research. For example, a lot of the studies used to support this claim were done in untrained individuals. And what we all have to realize is that when someone is untrained, these people are so new to lifting that they're going to get results no matter what they eat or what. These folks are in the newbie gains phase of their training, so everything works. But when we're talking about intermediate or advanced lifters,

01:20:21
or even older populations or women in menopause. Like this is where timing can actually amplify the results because it's going to help them train harder by feeling performance. It's going to improve their recovery between sessions and it's going to support better long-term adaptation, especially if someone is close to their genetic ceiling or they're starting to see like age-related declines in energy levels, biofeedback, sleep, like all these things. That's when nutrient timing becomes an important factor. And so it's not that we should overlook calories in protein. I think that that's the first layer.

01:20:51
I think that integrating nutrient timing is the next layer of refinement that can give you a meaningful edge. Now, the second myth that I have is another huge misunderstanding I see is people citing the 2013 meta-analysis by Brad Schoenfeld and Alan Aragon. This is the one that supposedly debunked nutrient timing. Alan is a good friend of mine. He's never said that first and foremost. Second of all, if you actually look into that paper, it wasn't a review of nutrient time. It was a meta-analysis of protein timing specific. First and foremost,

01:21:21
included 23 studies, but only four involve trained subjects. So 19 of those were on untrained subjects. So like I mentioned, they could have had the newbie gains effects. if we're looking at untrained subjects in a randomised control trial, and one was protein and one was placebo controlled, they're both making gains because the stimulus of training is so novel that they're responding regardless. Then another aspect of this review that many people overlook is that

01:21:50
only three studies match total protein intake across groups. So it really makes it difficult to have accurate conclusions. And then many of the workouts, if you actually look at the workout, mind you, this is most in newbies, they involve doing like a few sets of leg extensions. There weren't like higher volume, multiple body part resistance training sessions like most of us do. So yes, their review concluded that total daily protein intake mattered more than precisely timing protein intake, which I agree with. But this nuance has been lost and people now use this paper to claim that nutrient timing does matter.

01:22:19
which is not what that data actually showed. And then we have to realize that that review was released in 2013. So we've had dozens of papers that have come out since then that have showed clear benefits of pre-intra and post-workout nutrition in terms of muscle protein synthesis, glycogen replenishment, and recovery. The last one that is on the other end of the spectrum is that the anabolic window only lasts 30 minutes. And that's a newer one that's really come about. And if we go back, this industry kind of goes in these habitual patterns. It's like a cycle.

01:22:49
So in 2005, I was getting this message across to me. It was 30 to 60 minutes. Now it's only 30 minutes and it's only for women. It is that the post-workout window is different for women, which physiologically doesn't make sense first and foremost. But secondarily, we have to realize that this myth originally originated from the supplement industry and from supplement marketing. And I know that because I had a 10 plus year career in supplement, the supplement industry. did a research and development, but the marketing departments were spewing that information. And so...

01:23:17
Really what they've tried to get across is that there's this urgency around fast digesting products. And they've tried to push this narrative that it's an anabolic window instead of a garage door. But what you have to realize is that you don't need hydrolyzed whey or high GI carbs to maximize results. And you don't have to eat immediately post-workout. We see either the same, so equivalent or better benefits from a mixed meal, like a normal mixed meal of at least 25 to say 40 grams of protein and some carbs. And even if you get that in one to two or one to three hours,

01:23:47
out of the training window, you're good to go. Unless you train it fasted, like I had mentioned previously. And so really what we have to get across is that nutrient timing is a tool. It's not a trick and it's not going to fix a poor diet or poor training plan. But if you have a strong foundation, meaning you're eating enough calories and protein, you're following a solid resistance training program, and you're managing your sleep and stress, the nutrient timing is the next logical step to refine your performance. And it really can not make or break your results, but it can add that next layer of nuance and

01:24:17
enhancement so that you can maximize your training performance, you can enhance your recovery capacity, and you could really get yourself in a state where you're in the most advantageous position to maximize the gains and the body composition results you're going after. Amazing, Brandon. And so I know you have to go because you've got a client. On a scale of one to 10, you've called out both sides today. How afraid are you of being called out after this episode?

01:24:42
On a scale of one to 10. I'm going to go with a zero on that one. I got the receipts. honestly, when it comes down to it, I have no dog in the race. I see this in practice. This is something I've seen really help a lot of people that I've worked with, but I'm never going to be that person that's arguing on social media. I will always be in the trenches working with people like the individuals that are listening to the show. And I really prefer that. Yeah, no, I know. And of course, I'm going to put all of your information in the show notes, but please tell

01:25:11
the listeners, how they can contact you to work with you. Absolutely. So the best place to reach out to me is on my email, is bdecrusefitness at gmail.com. The next best place is on Instagram, where I post daily content. And you guys can also see my link tree, which will have um coaching info and all my other links and things of that sort. And that is at Brandon DeCruz underscore. And the final place for podcasting is the Chasing Clarity Health and Fitness podcast, where I've released a um pretty in-depth uh

01:25:40
podcast every single week for the last three years. So if you guys love podcasts, you're listening to Mickey, I would love for you to join me over there, especially because I have a great episode on protein intake and some of the myths on protein with Mickey that was just a few months back. Amazing, Brandon. And that is one of my favorite podcasts. I feel like it's like professional development every time I listen in. I appreciate you. I appreciate our conversations on air and off air as well. Thank you so much, Brandon. Absolutely. It's always a pleasure, Mikki. And I'm looking forward to the next one.

01:26:21
Alrighty, hopefully you enjoyed that and that it gave you a little bit more understanding on why some of the messaging around nutrient timing appears to be at odds depending on who you listen to. And I just think Brandon does an amazing job of clarifying that for us and allowing us to figure out when it actually matters. As I said to you, I've got Brandon on again in a couple of weeks talking about his own fat loss journey, which was just such a great

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conversation can't wait to bring that to you. Next week though I sit down with my good friend Erin Power just to chat about metabolism, stress, midlife for women and all things nutrition. We have besties in the business when it comes to nutrition. So that is next week. Until then though any comments, questions, inquiries you can catch me over on Instagram threads and X @mikkiwilliden.

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facebook @mikkiwillidennutrition or head to my website mikkiwilliden.com. Scroll right down to the bottom and pop your email address in and jump on my email list. Alright guys you have the best week. See you later.